Post by The Master Tactician on Jan 15, 2013 19:38:34 GMT -5
Wow, you guys should really save these important discussions for when a guy gets off work!
I'll begin work on a champion tier list ASAP. Message me if you would like to contribute.
In the meantime: the surest way to resolve or prevent conflict over champion power levels (read: "I shot you!" "Nuh-uh! I had a shield!") is with a quick OOC discussion concerning the potential outcome of the encounter.
For instance, Varus asked me before he attacked Noxus, "Hey, is it okay if I show up in Noxus on a quest of vengeance and murder a bunch of your people?" To which I responded, "Sure! Is it okay if I capture you afterwards? I think it will help to progress the plot." Simple, painless, and made for a fun RP thread. As much as you can, engage in OOC discussion with your fellows to help promote the goals of your RP. Be respectful and expect respect.
Just putting my opinion, I don't think the tier list should be categorized from the least power to the most powerful. It should be categorized in a specific skill.
For example, a list of people with water powers and a list of people with fire powers and like that.
Post by The Mad Chemist on Jan 15, 2013 20:50:36 GMT -5
Well it could be categorized on both ways. Styles do and can affect the outcome of a battle but so does "raw power" and tactics/strategy. A battle is affected on a heavier way by this factors but it is not as simple as rock, paper and scissors. An out boxer can win against a in boxer as much as can lose but a fight between 2 out boxers will go different that a fight between an out boxer vs. in boxer.
Well it could be categorized on both ways. Styles do and can affect the outcome of a battle but so does "raw power" and tactics/strategy. A battle is affected on a heavier way by this factors but it is not as simple as rock, paper and scissors. An out boxer can win against a in boxer as much as can lose but a fight between 2 out boxers will go different that a fight between an out boxer vs. in boxer.
but it is like rock paper scissors!
Some people merely have sheets of steel for paper. (But he's right!)
Last Edit: Jan 15, 2013 21:20:22 GMT -5 by katarina
Post by The Mad Chemist on Jan 15, 2013 21:48:22 GMT -5
Let's say that Riven and Ashe are on the same thier for this experiment. If they were going to fight it would go like this: Ashe: If Riven gets to me is GG (X.X) Riven if I can't reach her is GG (X.X). Is less about styles and more on who can use their style and brain better. Also I would like to quote Xykon: All you need is power, in as great a concentration as you can muster, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. It’s all about how much “true power” you have and how well you use it. If Ashe can kite Riven all day it will mean that she wins the fight and if Riven can take the fight to close quarters Ashe will not have much of a chance. If you don’t have Raw power you must be crazy skilled and if you aren’t skilled then you must be powerful or a balance between the two. I honestly only see a power chart as a guide to see “how many advantages would need character b to beat A without breaking the willing suspicion of disbelief”. For Singed to win against nocturne he would need to do a special weapon against him and formulate a plan to be able to use it. For Teemo to take on Nasus he would need divine protection and a full set of ancient artifacts.
Post by The Master Tactician on Jan 15, 2013 22:12:03 GMT -5
All speculation aside, I'm considering compiling a compendium that will include for each champ who they'd fight best with and against and who might give them the most trouble in combat.
Let's say that Riven and Ashe are on the same thier for this experiment. If they were going to fight it would go like this: Ashe: If Riven gets to me is GG (X.X) Riven if I can't reach her is GG (X.X). Is less about styles and more on who can use their style and brain better. Also I would like to quote Xykon: All you need is power, in as great a concentration as you can muster, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. It’s all about how much “true power” you have and how well you use it. If Ashe can kite Riven all day it will mean that she wins the fight and if Riven can take the fight to close quarters Ashe will not have much of a chance. If you don’t have Raw power you must be crazy skilled and if you aren’t skilled then you must be powerful or a balance between the two. I honestly only see a power chart as a guide to see “how many advantages would need character b to beat A without breaking the willing suspicion of disbelief”. For Singed to win against nocturne he would need to do a special weapon against him and formulate a plan to be able to use it. For Teemo to take on Nasus he would need divine protection and a full set of ancient artifacts.
I honestly only see a power chart as a guide to see “how many advantages would need character b to beat A without breaking the willing suspicion of disbelief”.
I was always under the impression that this is what it would be. It doesnt really serve much purpose other than forcing an agreement between all members of this forum of the relative difficulties of each matchup.
Last Edit: Jan 15, 2013 22:18:03 GMT -5 by katarina
Post by The Cardmaster on Jan 15, 2013 23:02:18 GMT -5
To be honest I think we still need to consider the fact that all champions are most likely of equal power. Granted, we have champions like Nasus and Renekton who seem unstoppable given their strength. However we know they can die.
If I were to stab Nasus in the chest with a sword he most likely die..if not be mortally wounded. So while different champions have different strengths, one champion can without a doubt end up defeating another. Granted it is less likely given circumstances, but there is always a chance.
Edit: Just because Tf will end up in a higher tier than Ashe..does not mean Ashe cannot defeat Tf.
Last Edit: Jan 15, 2013 23:03:14 GMT -5 by The Cardmaster
To be honest I think we still need to consider the fact that all champions are most likely of equal power. Granted, we have champions like Nasus and Renekton who seem unstoppable given their strength. However we know they can die.
If I were to stab Nasus in the chest with a sword he most likely die..if not be mortally wounded. So while different champions have different strengths, one champion can without a doubt end up defeating another. Granted it is less likely given circumstances, but there is always a chance.
Edit: Just because Tf will end up in a higher tier than Ashe..does not mean Ashe cannot defeat Tf.
You also have to consider that some champions from the void/shadow isles/other world are different from this one.
Example: Pantheon throws a spear at Nasus's chest. The spear bounces off and Nasus beats him to death.
It's safe to say that some of these higher tier champions have resistances to your average weapons. (wukong/xerath in-game passive's give hints to this) And that if you fight them you should consider the same, would Hecarim really feel a hail of arrows being shot at him? The situation makes me really think. And that's good!
Post by Adeptis Lune on Jan 16, 2013 3:08:38 GMT -5
"No matter how good you are, skill will never trump luck" There's some truth here. Nasus is a near unstoppable force, but if for instance, Vayne managed to get a bolt, through his heart and out again. We know him to be mortal, we only don't know where the hell his heart is And that's another thing. Non-humans. Do yordles have the heart on similar places? Does Cho'gath even have a heart? Even some humans are born "mirrored" So let's consider that. Each non-human has different fatal zones, and while champions MAY know them, and summoners SHOULD, any non-league people won't.
To be honest I think we still need to consider the fact that all champions are most likely of equal power. Granted, we have champions like Nasus and Renekton who seem unstoppable given their strength. However we know they can die.
If I were to stab Nasus in the chest with a sword he most likely die..if not be mortally wounded. So while different champions have different strengths, one champion can without a doubt end up defeating another. Granted it is less likely given circumstances, but there is always a chance.
Edit: Just because Tf will end up in a higher tier than Ashe..does not mean Ashe cannot defeat Tf.
I heavily disagree with the idea that champions are of equal power. The power scale on champions is incredibly varied. Skarner is a Rank A monstrosity along with Malphite- an elemental being; and Cho, the Eldritch Abomination.
Katarina can throw daggers all day but she isn't going to dent any of those champions; all else equal.
You mentioned killing Nasus by doing the stabbing in the chest. Yes. If you manage to penetrate his heart and inflict a very severe wound then he will most likely die. They are not immortal beings, as you said. But how would TF manage such a feat?
Would TF have the upper body strength to break Nasus's skin? Inflict more than merely a flesh wound? How would he stop Nasus from swatting him away like a mere gnat the moment the nerves fire and alert Nasus of the sword sliding into his chest? How would TF manage to get a stepladder and stab Nasus in such a way that he would actually exert force? What's stopping Nasus from merely flexing those massive pecs and taking the sword right out of TF's hands as it remained stuck between the god entity's sinewy muscles?
TF would need a lot going for him if he were going to take on Nasus. Which is, as Singed said, why this Tier List isn't a "B cannot kill A, C cannot kill B" but more of a "C is going to need things going in her favour to kill B and most likely a small army to take an A."
As Hecarim said, these creatures and abominations are just overpowered. If you try to duel a creature or person one or two ranks higher than you then you will get stomped all else equal. It's like a common footsoldier trying to take on Darius. He's going to get himself cleaved in two without Darius breaking a sweat. What if Darius were poisoned? What if Darius just finished battling Garen and this nameless soldier has a crossbow in Darius' blindspot? What if Darius was fighting not one nameless soldier but an entire army? Yeah, the soldier can probably kill Darius in each one of those scenarios - but as reflected by the tier list; only after considerable effort has been expended.
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